By David Mayeda, PhD, FightTicker.com Social Issues Contributor

Kim Winslow has always been someone who looks out for others’ safety. In this exclusive interview for FightTicker.com, Winslow discusses how she came to be MMA’s first professional female referee, her time refereeing in various Indian casinos, her thoughts on MMA’s unified rules, and some of the gender issues she faces in the sport. Articulate, confident, and forthright, the trailblazer provides insightful perspectives on our favorite sport.

FROM AIR TRAFFIC CONTROL TO MMA

FightTicker.com: So how did you get into refereeing?

Kim Winslow: I started out as a fan and was studying my first martial art, Tae Kwan Do. I was an air traffic controller and did that for 15 years. When I retired from air traffic control, I had switched to Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Muay Thai, doing more modern art forms, basically. The transition from controller to referee was natural for me because of the inherent similarities – safety, enforcement, rules and regulations. I started refereeing in 2006. I started out as an amateur boxing referee … and then I switched over to mixed martial arts.

FightTicker.com: So when was your first MMA fight that you ref'd?

Kim Winslow: That’s a good question. It was at an Indian casino and then I started bouts in the mid-west. Did some amateur stuff there. The Indian casinos were a whole different world. It’s not overseen by the athletic commissions. It’s a different animal. And that would have been in August 2006.

REFEREEING IN THE INDIAN CASINOS

FightTicker.com: So in the Indian casinos, what are the differences?

Kim Winslow: They’re not held under the same rules and regulations. A lot of times there weren’t any medical crews on sight. The security measures aren’t there. You just see things that you wouldn’t see if an athletic commission was there. The events at some of the Indian casinos that I’ve been to, there were more fights in the stands than there were in the [cage], that kind of stuff. You know, they do things not quite as safely … they start out letting people in a lot sooner with dollar drink specials beforehand, so the crowd is pretty much plastered before the event starts. That’s not really the best environment for spectators. They just get real rowdy.

And then things like stoppages. They don’t necessarily leave the referee as the sole arbitrator, which in a lot of athletic commissions, the referee is the sole arbitrator. Sometimes you see the promoter is also another referee or the promoter is also someone who can stop the fight. You just see all kinds of weird, crazy stuff.

I mean I’ve seen it where the promoter was also a referee. I was a referee on board that day but not refereeing the bout. So this guy’s in there and he’s got a downed fighter, and he’s hugging the winning fighter. But he’s got a downed fighter in the ring, and he doesn’t even check on him. Yeah, he’s over there hugging the winner, and I’m just going, this really sucks.

There was a fight where this guy had such a deep gouge in his forehead that every time his pulse beat, the blood was just squirting out of his forehead. It really should have been stopped, and he was just bleeding everywhere. I would have stopped it had I been the referee, but I was not, so it was not up to me. They had a doctor that was not really familiar with mixed martial arts … you know, I was almost playing the role of the doctors saying we need to get some ice or whatever happened to be needed.

It’s a totally, totally different world and I’m really glad to be out of that even though I learned a lot. It kind of brings it back to where I can see where they really should want to regulate that. A lot of the Indian casinos are really opening up themselves for possible law suits in the future. I think they’re lucky nothing serious has happened there, but if they don’t change things, it’s just a matter of time cause I’ve really seen some ugly things there. To be fair I did work some very well run shows at Indian casinos as well it just all depends on the Promoter and their experience level.

THOUGHTS ON MMA’S RULES

FightTicker.com: They have the Association of Boxing Commission now trying to come up with the uniform rules of MMA, and you’re on that committee, right?

Kim Winslow: Yes.

FightTicker.com: And given that you have a history of enforcing safety, and now in MMA, what are some uniform rules that need to take place?

Kim Winslow: Well, they already have a good foundation for the universal rules, so what they’re doing is tweaking what’s already there. They’re combining some of the rules into “un-sportsman-like conduct.” Obviously, they don’t need to have everything spelled out like spitting, or if a fighter has a type of behavior that can be classified as un-sportsman-like behavior. You can’t make a rule fore every single scenario cause there’s always going to be something that’s going to come up that we’ve never seen before.

It gives the referee leeway where if something happens that’s not right, that’s not sportsman-like conduct. For instance, it’s not in the rules anywhere, but let’s say somebody grabs somebody’s head and starts beating it against a pole in the Octagon, well, that’s not right. It’s just something that’s not part of the sport. This is an athletic event; this is not sportsman-like conduct. Well, that gives you your out there. That’s where you would put the foul under. It comes under that not being sportsman-like conduct. It can’t address every scenario you see, so common sense and judgement have to come into play, and you have to give the referee that kind of authority.

FightTicker.com: Any rule changes you’d like to see in terms of head stomps, soccer kicks, those kinds of things?

Kim Winslow: The rules, I’m used to adapting and changing them, and they change them based on promoters sometimes. Certain promoters add elbows and others take them away. As far as those kinds of things, the elbows don’t really bother me. I’m fine with those, the downward elbows that they’re talking about putting in, I don’t have a problem with those.

I do think they need to more clearly define where the back of the head is, the definition of it so that it’s universal, whatever that may be. Right now you have differences, depending on the state.

I’d like to see the smothering stay in. I think smothering has a use in creating a finish for the rear naked choke. Taking options away based on what it looks like is not something I agree with. There’s a really talented group of people set to decide the New Universal rules and I am confident in their abilities to make good decisions. I’ve put my input in already.

FightTicker.com: What about providing for fighters’ safety? Do you think there’s certain moves that should not be allowed universally?

Kim Winslow: I think they’re already in place. I think it’s a relatively safe sport, and I think we have a really good foundation. I don’t see any glaring rules that need to be added or taken away to make that better or worse.

FightTicker.com: In the main event matches in Hawaii (in some promotions), they allow soccer kicks and head stomps, the Pride rules. Do you think those are okay?

Kim Winslow: Well, the whole thing is if they’re (fighters) expecting it and trained for it. It’s a matter of consistency. So I don’t have a problem with it if it’s going to be something universal, something that the fighters expect and are trained to defend against it.

FightTicker.com: So getting back to the smaller shows. In the bigger shows, like you’ve been refereeing in the WEC now, the safety measures are already there and for a wide audience to see. What about at the smaller shows across the country?

Kim Winslow: The smaller shows with the commissions that I’ve worked with are the same. There’s no difference between the smaller and bigger shows. They’re handled the same way. There’s just as many safety measures taken and put into place. You have just as many inspectors at the smaller shows as the bigger shows with the states that I’ve worked with and I’m sanctioned with. And it’s really nice to see. They don’t treat the smaller shows any different than the bigger shows.

FightTicker.com: That’s great to hear. What states have you ref’d in?

Kim Winslow: Oregon, Washington, New Jersey, and Nevada are the states that I’m sanctioned with the athletic commission.

ON BEING MMA's ONLY PROFESSIONAL FEMALE REFEREE

FightTicker.com: Okay. You’re really a trailblazer in terms of gender. Are you the only female MMA referee in the country?

Kim Winslow: The only pro MMA referee. I’m not sure if there’s an amateur (female referee) out there. I just know for a fact I’m the only pro. There might be one out there in the amateur ranks, and if there is, I don’t want to exclude them that’s for sure, but I haven’t heard of any. There aren’t any others on the pro circuit at all.

FightTicker.com: Okay, well what kind of issues do you face as a woman?

Kim Winslow: Actually, I’ve been really lucky in that regard. I think my timing entering into it has been very good. I’ve been very well received. I’ve had very good relations with the different commissions. They’ve been very open. You know there’s certain commissions that are a lot tougher to get sanctioned with, and I understand that.

They want to see your body of work and when you get sanctioned with them, it’s definitely an honor. Nevada was one of those and I’m still working on getting sanctioned in California. I’ve been pursuing that aggressively. It’s been tied up for a while. So we’ll see. When they think I am ready, I guess they’ll sanction me. I don’t have any control over that.

FightTicker.com: What generally goes into being sanctioned?

Kim Winslow: Every state is different, so you have to pull out the requirements for every state and fill out the application. I have a demo tape that I send in, so that way they can actually see me in the Octagon. Cause I know that one, I’m a novelty because I am the first female so they want to see that I can handle myself in the ring, so I send them a demo reel and they can see my body of work.

FightTicker.com: Okay, now generally speaking a lot of fighters are bigger than referees (Winslow laughs) irrespective of gender. Do you feel like you get discriminated against in some ways if you’re ref’ing, even if it’s welterweights and down?

Kim Winslow: That’s absolutely untrue. I have been in there with super heavyweights. The largest fighters I’ve been in there with was my pro debut which was with super heavyweights – 386 lbs. and 392 lbs. That was up in Washington, and when I had to get in between them and stop the fighters, I had no problem with that.

It’s a matter of knowing what you’re doing. You know, if you know what you’re doing, it doesn’t matter what your weight class is, and I happen to be bigger than some of the referees on the circuit.

So I respect Steve (Mazagatti), but I’m bigger than he is. He’s ya know, 5’9” and I don’t know what his weight is, but I’m bigger than Steve is. I mean, I’m taller than Josh Rosenthal. I’m the same height as Herb Dean; I look eye-to-eye with him. I have not been restricted to any weight class at all. I’ve handled plenty of heavyweight bouts. And it doesn’t intimidate me; it doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t keep me from going in to make a stoppage. I just do my job.

FightTicker.com: That’s good to hear the organizations aren’t discriminating against you.

Kim Winslow: Yeah, well they shouldn’t. It’s not like I’m in there fighting the fighters. I’m not in there to do battle with them. I’m there for their safety and their protection, and a competent referee can do that regardless of what the weight class is.

You see smaller referees, such as Steve, he’s done plenty of the super heavyweights. He did the Frank Mir – Brock Lesnar fight and both those fighters are a lot bigger than he is. Did anybody question him doing that fight or whether or not he could stop them? No, nobody questioned that.

FightTicker.com: Any other gender issues you run into? Do fighters ever make comments?

Kim Winslow: The only comment I’ve actually heard was when somebody was trying to be progressive, which I just kind of laughed at. At the events, we get our assignments about an hour beforehand. In Nevada, we don’t know what fights we’re going to get ahead of time. We just go down there and then they hand out the assignment sheets.

So I had a fighter come up to me, and he goes, “I just wanted to let you know that I don’t have a problem with you being my referee at all.” And I just said, well it wouldn’t matter if you did because you're stuck with me. But no, I don’t have any negative comments or negative reactions.

For a lot of them, it’s just the surprise factor, it’s still there. A lot of [fighters] are still getting used to it, me being out there on the circuit. They’re just surprised to see me out there, but more are aware that I’m out there now. But the curiosity factor is still there.

But once they get familiar with you and see that you’re good and you’re fair, that’s all they care about. They care about if you’re doing your job and you’re fair. And when you sit down at your pre-fight meetings and you establish what you expect from them, what they can expect from you, that settles everything right there. It makes them comfortable how you show you’re in control when you run the ring. It makes all the difference in the world. It sets up the respect. It sets up the expectations and the confidence level.

FightTicker.com: Do you consider yourself a trailblazer in the industry?

Kim Winslow: I guess. I mean when I first started down this path, I went out looking for some other females that I could talk to, and I was surprised when I didn’t find any. I guess the answer to that is an uncomfortable “yes.” I didn't set out to be the first anything but I guess someone has to so it's me.

FightTicker.com: Okay, how do you feel about women’s mixed martial arts in terms of the competitors. It’s been a huge year so far.

Kim Winslow: Yes, I’m happy to see that the sport is growing for both men and women. It’s great for the sport. It’s just great all around, to see women coming forward and showing their athleticism and putting on a good show.

FightTicker.com: Do you feel there should be different rules between the sexes in terms of time limits and that kind of thing?

Kim Winslow: No. Nope, I don’t.

FightTicker.com: In EliteXC, they had the three 3-minute rounds.

Kim Winslow: Well, if you ever watched Bodog, they (women) showed they were certainly capable of doing the full 5-minute rounds. If they can do it for one league, they can do it for both. But that is ultimately up to the promoter.

And in different states, they can request to bypass that. It depends on their experience level, how many fights they’ve had under their belts. So some states have a restriction on that. So they can go to the state and try to bypass that and make a request for the 5-minute rounds. That depends on the state and I don’t know why some states are tougher than the others.

FightTicker.com: What do you think, do you think we’ll ever see women in the UFC as competitors? I know Dana White has said no.

Kim Winslow: As competitors? I understand needing to have more competitors out there and needing to fill the weight classes. I understand there’s reasoning behind it. There has to be more women out there. So if they can get the [numbers] and fill the weight classes, it would probably open some eyes.

There definitely is talent out there, and they’ve shown that they can compete. They need to show that there’s enough women to pull from and not have the same small group fighting each other repeatedly.

WINSLOW’S FUTURE

FightTicker.com: How many matches have you ref’d in the WEC?

Kim Winslow: Just those two. That was my first Zuffa event.

FightTicker.com: Alright, so are we going to see you in the UFC pretty soon?

Kim Winslow: (Laughs) I wish I knew the answer to that question.

FightTicker.com: Do you want to? That would be pretty cool.

Kim Winslow: Of course, absolutely. Every referee would love to do the bigger shows. Absolutely, sure.

FightTicker.com: Now do you still train?

Kim Winslow: Nevada had me sever my ties with my schools as part of my sanctioning. I did train at the Reno Academy of Combat and the Charles Gracie Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Academy both at the same time here in Reno. When I did get my Nevada sanctioning I did have to stop attending those schools because of the conflict of interest it created (with me) training where there are fighters training. I understand that but I sure miss it.

FightTicker.com: I was gonna ask if you were ever going to think of competing.

Kim Winslow: No, I’m too old for that (laughs) and I don’t have a fighter’s heart. I admire fighters. I respect everyone that gets in the Octagon or ring. I’m the type that if I were to strike someone, I would ask "Are you okay?" I am a safety girl. That’s why I’m a referee. That’s what I’m meant to do. I just don’t have that fighter’s spirit. I’m not a warrior in that regard.

As Winslow surely demonstrates, one doesn’t have to be a fighter to be a warrior.

David Mayeda, PhD, is lead author of Fighting for Acceptance: Mixed Martial Artists and Violence in American Society, the first political book on mixed martial arts that attempts to reform the sport by increasing violence prevention measures through interviews with forty mixed martial artists, including Randy Couture, Dan Henderson, Guy Mezger, Antonio McKee, Chris Leben, "Rampage" Jackson, "Mayhem" Miller, Travis Lutter, and Frank Trigg. Dr. Mayeda has also published numerous academic journal articles on youth violence prevention and discrimination in sports media.