I think the Penn-Sobral comparisons are fair.

However, I think Bisping was far more engaged against Hamill. And, several sources have said since that fight that it should have been a draw and some have said that Bisping actually won rounds 2 and 3. I think what Starnes did was magnitudes worse.

Here is the Chipmunks take on the Babalu fight guys, I have to go find my old avatar.

Sweet-N-Sassy
Mess with my family and we will hunt you down fool!

What I was trying to get at......is there needs to be a individual with nothing more to do than make sure every one is getting treated equally.
Dana's job seems to be....run day to day operations.....oversee the Ultimate Fighter......be the face of the UFC......and pretty much everything else as well.

Good point Eers. In the end, I think it comes down to marketability. Bisping is useful because he is the promotion's biggest UK draw. Starnes isn't nearly their best Canadian fighter so he became expendable.

Penn is a legend while Sobral was also expendable given the depth of the light heavy division.

I think those are the calculations White and the others make.

Don't be fooled -- these are not all "fair" decisions and never will be. It's a business first, sport second.

I wonder why Kalib didn't use the crane (spelling) it worked in the Karate Kid.

Sweet-N-Sassy
Mess with my family and we will hunt you down fool!

As for Penn/Sobral, I agree both held there submissions too long but didn't after the fight Babalu admitted he held it in because he had an issue with the guy he was fighting, where as Penn didn't say a peep about holding it long. I think there are times when you can get into the line of fire and are so intense that you don't even realize that the ref is tapping you to say its over. I hope Dana thought that is what was happening with Penn and thought it was inexcusable that Babalu would do what he did, and admit that he did it and risk the well being of another fighter.

I agree with Ticker that Bisbing-Hamill was much different than Quarry-Starnes... I see the point you are getting at with equal treatment but I don't think it is THAT bad right now that it requires someone to change things.

-The Captain

I don't think changes need made......but all I'm saying is the UFC is quickly growing into a moster! And MMA is a legit sport now. Any legit sport needs to have a governing body of some sort over seeing it.
For one guy to be the President, Sec, waterboy, promoter, and everything else is just asking for trouble when you are dealing with a company that employes a few hundred Martial Artists, and worth a billion bucks.

EERS_1_Fan

Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol

there's double standard in all sports. in team sports ref's might let one foul go and then call the same foul later for whatever reason. football teams sign players for contracts then cut them if they don't perform but if they overperform they still have the same contract (not including incentives). i can probably think of a million examples

i don't think a governing body is the right answer...it may alleviate some problems but it won't be a complete fix. i've always been PRO-dana white but i do think he needs to step back somewhat. he has a good business model right now and i wouldn't want to see that crumble.

Isn't this similar to what goes on in most sports with the commissioner though? I'm sure Dana has advisors he turns to make decisions, similar to what Roger Goddell has in the NFL. The only addition could be a fighters union like they have with the players.

-The Captain

also the difference between the sobral fight and the penn fight is that one fighter ended up unconscious and the other one didn't....even though sobral and penn both tried the same thing.

it would be like the equivalent of a hockey fight where one guy ends up unconscious and the other guy with a bloody lip. where do you draw the line? its still a "legal" fight/punch in hockey and it sucks but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

Also, let's keep in mind that a union doesn't always help. The NFL players hate their union boss, Gene Upshaw. NFL players have brutal contracts -- much of the money is not guaranteed. On the other hand, NBA players make fat money for three and a half quarters of boring play...

There is no magic bullet and I agree with those who say that all in all DW is doing a good job.

"also the difference between the sobral fight and the penn fight is that one fighter ended up unconscious and the other one didn't....even though sobral and penn both tried the same thing."
You really can't hold it against Babalu, Penn may have held his a little longer in fact. Babalu is just the better submission guy I guess?

EERS_1_Fan

Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol

Good point regarding Babalu. He made the mistake of saying publicly that what he did was intentional.

About Starnes, don't forget that he asked for his release after what DW said about his fight.

So, DW is only half the reason these guys got cut...

Once in pulled a gray Maynard in a Wrestling match.
my knee head and his body all hit at the same time when i hit the double leg (it was legal) but i was kind of out.
But I was behind in points and it was the 3rd period, so I needed a pin. I kept control of him and kept my head buried in his side, I could not see good so I knew the ref would call for an injury.
Once I got my wits back I was able to walk myself up his body and pin him

As for the Bisping fight yes I know I went wayyyyyyyyyyyy over board....... but I still think there should be someone over those types of desions other than White.

EERS_1_Fan

Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol

yea eers, that's my point with the babalu and BJ. what they both did was the SAME exact sh*t, and they both probably wanted the same exact results....one just looks alot worse than the other so where do u draw the line?

Thats my point dude.....If you are going to be fair......you have to dish out the same punishment no matter if they are a pacific islander, or a midget, or they are black or a cross dresser lol. My point being they can't give special treatment or it makes the sport look bad.....and we don't want that

EERS_1_Fan

Head of South East Tribe MMAFIA
MMABRAT, CaptnCrunch, and Michael are all going to start training in the devils MMA lol

Shouldn’t this type of issue be governed by the athletic commission that sanctioned the fight in the first place? If this is a subjective issue, it should be made by the ref that is certified by the commission and handled on the spot. If nothing is done during the fight, or other information become available, the commission would step in and direct the UFC (aka Dana) to take punitive action against the fighter in question.

agreed. agreed.

we're arguing the same thing!

Eers you are right on the money! I completly agree with your blog/post.

There have been many fighters over the years that have been treated suspiciously by DW (see: Matt Lindland and Josh Barnett) while others were given a pass or even a vote of confidence for the worse similar but transgressions (see: Franklin and Sean Sherk). Look at how differently Sherks steroid situation was handled from Barnett... Barnett tested clean in a test before and a second test after - plus they proved improper handling of the test results and showed that the authority had issues with false positives. Who knows if Barnett was guilty or not... only Barnett will ever know for sure. Barnett was cut immediately from the UFC and slammed every time he is mentioned around Dana... But think of how differently it was handled with Sherk. There is NO QUESTION Sherk tested positive (at least with Barnett the labs were admittedly having problems), regardless of how the steroids got there (if Bonds...errr I mean... Sean Sherk knew he was taking them or not). Dana was defending him... why the difference? Barnett had frequently been outspoken about his boss, and Sherk was quickly becoming a poster child for the LW division.

Dana has done a great job of guiding the UFC and as a result MMA as a whole to how big it is today. But with the money that is involved and ever increasing magnifying glass that the sport will continue to come under... they need to have some change in philosophy to offer more protection and allow the fighters to share in this newfound economic benefit to a more appropriate degree.

I think the only way is if there was at least some form of arbitration... Perhaps something like a trade-union... something that they can at least get together and collectively set higher standards and appeal to for arbitration to ensure fair treatment... the one good thing about XC's rise is that competition that will push UFC to do more to keep its fighters happy...

Yeah what he said lol

Sweet-N-Sassy
Mess with my family and we will hunt you down fool!

Is MMA is a legit sport? Certainly it is in the sense that it is not a NHB fight, but a fight sport with very specific rules that dictate fighters train in special ways for the specific circumstances dictated by those rules and the environment. But this is a sports entertainment money making endeavor by all the promotions involved, and to some extent that limits its ligitimacy.

These promotions are making decisons with their wallets. I don't see that changing.

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Boy oh boy lots of great talk going on here. I love this blog good job eers.

I was obviously going to argue the Bisping/Starnes comparison but I see you have already admitted that you greatly exaggerated that point so I won't even bother.

As for double standards...maybe havign double standards is what makes MMA a legitimate sport. I don't know if anyone here is a hockey fan but take a look at recent NHL suspensions...Downie (Philly rookie creams a guy with a vicious head shot in pre-season, history of suspension in minors gets something like 20 games), Brashear (Stomps with his skate on the leg of another player, Goon long history of suspensions, I think it was 20 plus games if I remember right) then we come to Chris Pronger (stomps the leg of a player in a similar fashion to Brashear, Long history of suspensions, former NHL MVP and among the best defencemen in the league today) how many games did he get? 8. In the playoffs the previous season he had threw a head shot similar to Downie how many games did he get 1.

The same can be said for baseballs treatment of their guys. Why is it that baseball only catches the no name schmucks in their drug tests when we all know that there are probably 80% of them that use? Because guys like A-Rod sell the tickets.

Who sells more tickets Babalu or Penn? Who had they just promoted the Hell out of as a coach for their TUF? Who is better Babalu or Penn? The answer is obvious. Penn is worth more to the sport just like Pronger and A-Rod and Bryant. So for the good of your company you give them more slack.

That being said I think it is bad for the sport to have double standards but hey...that is just professional sports and it gives us more crap to argue, complain and discuss.

I will actually come back to the Bisping/Hamill thing from a diffrent angle. Your complaining about Dana regarding the decision? What was he supposed to do? He wasn't a judge. Was he supposed to somehow overrule the judge just because he disagreed with their decision? Do you really want to set that precident in what was a close fight that went to decision? If that is what you want then lets do away with the judges and just let Dana decide who wins all the fights. I know you don't want that. Refs screw up calls, Figure skating judges screw up results, linesmen miss offsides. Crap happens. You don't like it finish the fight and don't let it go to the judges.

just let Dana decide who wins all the fights.

i agree.

Underboss MMAfia

Head of the West Coast Family
ULTIMATE CHALLENGE CHAMPION UFC 83

Very good point, Radial, in bringing up the economic influence in all these decisions. Undoubtedly, you can point to every circumstance and see that each decision was made with its effect on the bottom line in mind. Case in point, the UFC releases Babalu and few complain, in fact most are probably happy he's gone because they thought that what he did jeopardized the good standing of the sport and could've caused the first death in the cage. If he'd been allowed to continue, maybe many would've protested by not buying Pay-per-views for the fights he was in or at least word would've gotten around and maybe some senator would be crusading to shut down such a 'brutal' sport. When you compare that to Penn not even knocking Pulver out with his submission, and add to that the fact that he's a MMA legend, main event headliner, the kind of guy that puts a huge spike in the number of Pay-per-view buys and makes millions for the UFC, it's not hard to see why there's a double standard. Just out of curiosity, what did Sixtus mean by Rich Franklin being guilty of the same transgressions as Barnett and Lindland? Did he test positive for steroids or something?