Wrestling and MMA
OfflineI wanted to take this opportunity to clarify my position on wrestling and its role in MMA. I am in no way an opponent of wrestling as an MMA discipline -- in fact, I believe it's becoming one of the three necessary arts that a fighter needs to learn in order for him/her to be considered a legit contender in the sport (along with Muay Thai and BJJ.) While Muay Thai addresses the stand-up game and BJJ addresses the ground game, wrestling serves as an art useful for the transition between the two and for achieving superior position.
I think my only negative comment about wrestling is that in and of itself, it allows for a fighter to achieve superior positioning but NOT any means to end a fight. To me, MMA is about ending a fight and not about scoring points or winning by judges' decision based on positioning. Those things obviously come into play when a fight is not stopped but I don't think too highly of fighters who have no means to ending a fight.
Generally speaking, one-dimensional wrestlers in MMA only have one way to end fights -- ground-and-pound. Brock Lesnar is a perfect example of this. Without GnP however, he has no other means to end fights. So, if an opponent can neutralize GnP what you end up with is a lay and pray victory for the wrestler.
Muay Thai and BJJ, on the other hand, have multiple means to victory by stoppage.
Now, don't get me wrong. It has nothing to do with the ground vs. stand-up. In fact, I prefer to watch BJJ over stand-up (except for the best stand-up fighters like the Spider) in MMA.
And, I also realize that some of the top fighters out there like Rampage, the Iceman and Randy started as wrestlers. So, I respect the discipline a tremendous amount. It's the guys like Jake O'Brien who have nothing outside of wrestling that are a bore to watch.
But, again, I believe it's a very necessary skill and its use represents a huge advantage that American fighters have over their foreign counterparts.
Please feel free to chime in.
Comments
i agree with that. fights that are finished are way better than fights that don't. unless they are beating up on each other and then it goes to decision...(stout vs spencer)
i could not have said it better...
"it allows for a fighter to achieve superior positioning but NOT any means to end a fight. To me, MMA is about ending a fight and not about scoring points or winning by judges' decision based on positioning."
Underboss MMAfia
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Thanks I will voice my opinion on this. If 2 guys enters MMA 1 with a strong background in wrestling the other in bjj here is how I see it
Wrestler can win by lucky punch, slam, dec, g-n-p
BJJ can win by lucky punch, dec, tap out
from what I count there is 1 more thing for the wrestler.
EERS_1_Fan
I'm the Capo mess with me and I'll tell you where to go!
Thanks I will voice my opinion on this. If 2 guys enters MMA 1 with a strong background in MMA the other in MMA here is how I see it
Wrestler can win by lucky punch, slam, dec, g-n-p
BJJ can win by lucky punch, dec, tap out
from what I count there is 1 more thing for the wrestler.
EERS_1_Fan
I'm the Capo mess with me and I'll tell you where to go!
Ahh, but Eers, how many different ways are there to force a "tap-out"? You can do it from bottom or top position as a BJJ guy. Wrestlers hate being on the bottom...
you can gnp from mount or side control or half.........not to mention every wrestler knows at least some submissions
EERS_1_Fan
I'm the Capo mess with me and I'll tell you where to go!
it mostly comes down to not finishing. i dont care if you wrestle, roll or strike. finish the damn guy. obviously, the opponent's talent level comes into play because everyone does manage to score submission wins (sometimes the opponents are just not very good though)
tyson griffin has like 5 fights go to decision in 6 ufc fights, not a finisher
koscheck, not much of a finisher
even sherk doesnt impress me as a finisher. his numbers would indicate he can submit people, but how many of those were against lesser opponents?
when a wrestler doesnt finish, you get a lot of l&p... is it a smart tactical win? YES. i dont deny that at all. is it compelling or particularly exciting to watch? well, this where i have to go with a NO.
forrest griffin is not a finisher either but because he doesnt tend to just wrestle for position, his fights end up being more active. at the same time, he is probably putting himself in a more risky position. its a tradeoff, do you go for the win at the cost of entertainment value and marketability or do you just floor it and see where it takes you? i've watched heavyweight boxers hug for 12-15 rounds and its a smart tactical win, but fuck if i want to pay to watch it.
A note on Koscheck before he fought Lytle he won by TKO over Dustin Hazelett, and I think even though this last fight went to dec it should have been stopped by the ref or a doctor. And how was it not fotn?
Tyson Griffin did a really good job as well he reall put a beating on Marcus A. I don't like dec. either maybe they can start adding more rounds untill someone wins for real?
MMABrat
Soldier of MMAFia I am not the best but I try!
do you mean kos-lytle for FOTN?
it was pretty bloody and kinda exciting in as much as lytle wouldnt stay down, but i think FOTN ends up being more of the closer competitions. more back and forth action or a guy thats down somehow manages to comeback and get the W. unfortunately for lytle, that fight was mostly lytle's head getting used like a paintbrush, not too much back and forth action.
(and i agree with you about tyson griffin, he needs like one or two more rounds to get a finish)
The reason I thought the fight was so good was because they did not stop it, and Lytle had so much fight left in him. The fans was excited they wanted a big finish. As for the Forrest vs Rampage fight I'm not going to argue the dec but they was all cheering for Griffin but did not like the dec.
MMABrat
Soldier of MMAFia I am not the best but I try!
Bosco I completly agree that it is all about finishing. However just because a guy doesnt finish, doesnt mean it's LnP. To me LnP is different from GnP. One is trying simply to control the person and score points for a decision. The other is taking that control and inflicting sufficient damage to end a fight. I blame LnP as much on the ref as on the fighter. If a fight is simply controlling the ground position and not working towards being able to finish a fight, they should stand them up. Personally I wish the UFC stood fighters up more quickly... and also penalized guys for not engaging in the action (like Starns and to a point Machida).
BTW - Tyson Griffen might have a lot of decisions, but I think he is an exciting fighter. He stays active the whole time and LWs are just tough as hell.
Here is how I score fights in my head
If a wrestler/grappler gets a hard take down like a body slam I count it just like a near KO.
But the stand up fighters are always trying to avoid the take downs and the wrestler/grapplers are trying to avoid the power so I count the small knock downs and take downs the same after all why wouldn’t they be?
MMABrat
Soldier of MMAFia I am not the best but I try!
You just cant keep standing them up Sixtus. Sometimes the ground work, whether its BJJ or wrestling, is very hard to gain advantaages in. If they are just laying there not trying to advance their position or working to gain a better position then yes, stand them up. It was very boring watching Joe Stevenson sit there looking at the ref while his arm was pinned in a hold in the first round of his fight but as Rogan said, there could be a split second where it goes from not hurting to being a tap out. How can you penalize a guy and just stand them up? Its very difficult for the refs. I know what you are saying but its MMA and ground work is all part of it. Gotta give the fighters a chance to work it on the ground first.
Brat, I do agree it was very entertaining fight just on the grounds of seeing if lytle would make it to the end of the fight but FOTN??? no way.
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There wasnothing spectacular about the Koshcheck-Lytle fight other than the fact that Lytle lost a ton of blood and seemed to have more fight in him than the blonde wanna-be pretty boy.
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