Quantcast

User login

Navigation

Breadcrumbs

Adjusting to the Octagon: Wanderlei Silva's Problem

If you haven't been to MMA Opinion in the last couple of days, you probably haven't seen this piece yet. Anyway, here it is.

There are old Pride fans that are going to look at this and get angry at me, people who are going to say that I’m just jumping off of the Wanderlei Silva bandwagon because he lost a few fights, he’s fallen on some hard times. So I’ll start by saying that that’s not what I mean when I say I’m skeptical about Wanderlei’s future in the UFC.

As far as I’m concerned, Wanderlei Silva was the dominant fighter in the world for years, and his streak in Pride is one of the impressive ever. His aggression and his ability to attack endlessly is amazing and it’s something that I think will define him as one of the greatest fighters who has ever stepped into a ring or a cage.

The fact is, though, as great a fighter as Wanderlei has been, the Octagon is not his home, and it is not where he’s comfortable. Frank Trigg once pointed out on an episode of FSN that one of the things that made Wanderlei so great in Pride was his ability to control space, his ability to lock down his opponents in the corners of the ring and his ability to make the ref stop the fight. Even as a Wanderlei fan, I can’t say that that incredible skill has translated to the UFC.

There’s no doubt in my mind that if Chuck Liddell and Wanderlei had met in Pride, the fight would have gone to Silva before the end of the first round. The problem is that there is something about the Octagon that just makes it incredibly difficult for Wanderlei to use his skills.

In his UFC career, Silva is 0-2 against two fighters who have thrived inside the Octagon. Tito Ortiz really never left the cage to fight anywhere else, and Liddell’s venture in the world with ropes had some disastrous consequences. Still, the fact that Silva was beaten by two fighters who might not have stood a chance on Silva’s home turf begs the question of whether the environment actually plays a roll in his game.

If you watch the way that Silva fights, it’s not immediately obvious that it does, but if you watch how he catches opponents in the corner with the clinch, how he traces his opponents movement off of the rope with such accuracy, it starts to make a little bit of sense. Let me explain what I mean:

Silva comes from a muay thai background and trained most of his career to fight in rings, and there are certain movement patterns that fighters use to escape off of the ropes that don’t apply in the Octagon. The shape of the cage makes the geometry a little bit trickier and requires opponents to move a little bit closer to the cage, as more of a back-away and sideways motion, instead of the more traditional circling motion that boxers and thai fighters use to get off of the ropes. Wanderlei was, and still seems to be, attached to attacking fighters with that movement pattern.

The “off-the-ropes” movement pattern is one of the things that has made alot of boxing movement styles translate poorly to MMA, and has caused a lot of issues for strikers just in general. That’s not to say that strikers can’t succeed in MMA, but it seems to be a major player in why so many traditional K-1 strikers have struggled to effectively use their striking in the cage, and some guys who would have gotten killed in K-1 have been such effective strikers in the UFC. Guys like Mirko “CroCop” Filipovic and Semmy Schilt, who spent their entire careers fighting in rings, have trouble finishing opponents they should kill easily. Even though CroCop and Schilt won their UFC debuts, defeating Eddie Sanchez and Pete Williams (respectively), many considered their performances unimpressive, and as I watch their fights, I find that they had a really hard time tracking their opponents when they had backed them into a corner.

The geometry of the cage requires fighters to train to fight an opponent moving off the cage and not off of the ropes, because it requires them to be used to that different movement pattern. There is another serious problem presented for the muay thai striker who uses the thai clinch as an effective attack against the corners of the ring as Wanderlei did often in Pride.

The fact is, the corners of a ring are a smaller angle, giving the opponent less room to escape by way of rolling off as the clinch is being put on or in the midst of the knees. When you make a larger angle, as the UFC has in the Octagon, you create more room for an opponent to move out, instead of making that movement more difficult by having the ropes closer together. Becomes more elbow room for opponents being attacked.

There is something to be said for the great muay thai fighters that have transitioned to the cage, Anderson
Silva, for one. The fact is, if you can still track your opponent and still understand the dynamics of the cage, you’re in good shape. It’s when you become used to the dimension of the ring that makes it hard to condition.

This may well go for other fighters, like the UFC guys who have failed to really transfer their game to the ring fighting style, where their opponents move differently off the ropes, and it may effect why grapplers seem less effected by the transition than strikers.

For me, this is a fairly recent idea, but the more I think about Wanderlei’s upcoming matchup with Jardine, the more I think that it will rest on his ability to adapt his style to where he can track Jardine, because his thai skills are far superior to Jardine and his jiu-jitsu blackbelt will, at least in my mind, make Jardine less eager to take this fight to the ground.

The UFC announcers and promoters talk about “Octagon shock” and how hard it is for a fighter to transition to the volatile environment that is the cage. While there’s some truth to dealing with the environmental difference of having chain links against your back instead of ropes, they tend to overplay the drama, especially when talking about experienced fighters. Guys like Wanderlei Silva and Mirko CroCop, who have been competing their entire career, are not going to be severely effected by a small change of venue, or a slight change of rules. There’s something more to that that plays into their games

I won’t excuse poor performances put on by Pride fighters since the buyout, but I will say that there is a technical reason for the struggle of so many great strikers. It’s just a thought, but it seems to explain alot of the failures of guys who should win, and it’s a new factor for all those betting on the Jardine vs. Silva match. A little food for thought going into the fight.

Comments

Fight Ticker's picture

Nice analysis IronMan. I

Nice analysis IronMan.

I think as you say there are a couple of factors that make the Octagon different from the ring -- 1) the more rounded shape of the Octagon vs. the ring and 2) a factor that you didn't mention -- the Octagon is much larger than the ring which makes Silva's stalking style a little more difficult to put into practice.

PapaBalsamo's picture

that was a pretty good

that was a pretty good analysis. i've never fought before so i'm not going to pretend like i know what its like inside the ring/cage especially when it comes to intricate things like spacing, footwork, and movement....but i disagree with your assertion that chuck would have lost in the first round to silva in a ring.

i only saw the chuck/silva fight once, but from what i recall there weren't too many times that chuck used the cage in the first 10 minutes. like i said though...i don't know anything about spacing/footwork/etc...so someone correct me if i'm wrong.

TheCaptain's picture

Great work IronMan I agree

Great work IronMan

I agree with Papa about the Liddell fight, I think Chuck at this point simply looked bigger and in more control of what is going on.

Everytime I watch Wanderlei what I can't shake from my mind is the who issue of how steroids wasn't prohibited in PRIDE. To me based off of the clips I've seen of him dominating in PRIDE he simply looks like a bigger man than he is now. I feel like at this point he is simply oversized by these LHW and needs to move down to MW.

-The Captain

Fight Ticker's picture

Good point Captain. That's

Good point Captain. That's another thing I wanted to mention with respect to Wandy. He's way too small. American fighters tend to be bigger than their Japanese MMA counterparts. From what I understand, weight-cutting isn't part of their culture over there.

I think Wandy will need to move down to MW.

Similarly, Rua looked small compared to Griffin.

TheCaptain's picture

I don't remember the Rua

I don't remember the Rua fight that clearly but I don't remember noticing that much a size difference there. Rua just came out looking sluggish and unprepared. I get curious with a lot of these highly touted PRIDE guys who come out looking so terrible as it pertains to steroids.

-The Captain

Sixtus's picture

I like the overall

I like the overall analysis... to sum it up, it almost sounds like your ultimate point is that pure strikers fare better in rings and you need to be more well-rounded in a cage?

Two things I do take exception to... First you said Chuck had disasterous results in the ring/Pride. Chuck was 1-1 in Pride with a win over a strong opponent in Overeem and a loss to the current LHW champ who also beat him even more convincingly in the UFC. So was it the cage/ring or does Rampage just match up well with Chuck no matter? I think Rampage just has Chuck's number.

Also, I think Wandie is doing fine in the UFC... his first loss was a hard fought decision to a peaking young, Tito Ortiz 8 years ago. Tito went on to hold the title for a LONG time after that fight. His other loss in the UFC was again a hard fought (great fight) decision to Chuck after suffering back-to-back KO losses to Cro Cop and Hendo. Hard to be welcomed back in to the UFC/cage with such a tough fight after those type of consecutive losses. And he fought a good fight... a decision against Chuck Liddell is NOTHING to knock. I think the fight in Pride would have went similarily because Chuck's style doesnt change from ring to cage. The one thing that has helped Chuck in the cage is his legendary TD defense... not an issue in the ring or cage with Wandie.

Sixtus. Chuck was 2-1 in

Sixtus. Chuck was 2-1 in Pride. (you're probably forgetting his fight with Guy Mezger) Rampage does matchup well with Chuck, because he's an aggressive, powerful striker with a good chin. Still, Wanderlei matches up well with Chuck because he has a sick clinch game and powerful, aggressive open range striking.

As for the guys who disagree with me about the results of a fight in Pride, think of it this way:

Where did Wanderlei beat Rampage?

Because he caught him up against the ropes and beat the living hell out of him.

If Chuck spent the fight backing up, in his traditional fashion (like he did against Rampage when they fought in Pride), he'd get his face smashed in when he finally ended up against the ropes (like he did against Rampage when they fought in Pride). Obviously, I'm speculating, but that's how I see this going down because Chuck's game plays so badly into the ring and Wanderlei's plays so well into it.

Frank Trigg points this out in an episode of Pride on FSN, but that's beside the point.

The point is that if Chuck was forced into a corner of the ring, he'd be in serious trouble, especially if dealing with a powerful clinch game like Wanderlei's. So I'm sticking by that prognostication, unfortunately it will never happen.

Sixtus's picture

Ah - you're right I forgot

Ah - you're right I forgot about the fight with Metzger... I was only thinking of the tourney.

Poll

Betting Partners

Bet on MMA at Bodog


Bet on UFC at BetUS.com