Manny Pacquiao vs. Miguel Torres: Why Zuffa, LLC must make this match
By David Mayeda, PhD, FightTicker.com Social Issues Contributor
Coming off the heels of a solid Affliction card and approaching EliteXC's second run onto primetime television, we should look at what makes the Zuffa, LLC brand of mixed martial arts (MMA) at present time, distinctly different from these and other MMA organizations.
When it comes to MMA, Zuffa, LLC, the parent company of the UFC and WEC, is about long-term vision. Sure, Dana White, the Fertitta brothers, and the UFC also want short-term success. But as a broader organization, Zuffa, LLC is taking impressive measures to build their organization for the long haul. Now that Lorenzo Fertitta has shifted his occupational focus to the UFC and its international expansion, he should also think about the WEC talent and how it can fit into the international mix.
Enter Miguel Torres, the 135lb Latino phenom, who has steadily gained respect across the MMA world. In most pound-for-pound polls, Torres ranks solidly amongst the world’s top ten, irrespective of weight class, and is the current WEC Bantamweight Champion. Oh, and let’s not forget that ridiculous 33-1-0 professional MMA record.
Now enter Manny Pacquiao, the Filipino sensation, currently considered by most boxing aficionados the world’s best pound-for-pound boxer. With lightening quick, precision punches and unrelenting power, the 29-year-old “Pacman” boasts a 47-3-2 record (36 KOs). Not to mention, he is the reigning WBC Lightweight Champion, WBC World Super Featherweight champion, and WBC International Super Featherweight champion.
But how could a fight between these two combat sport stars happen, and perhaps more importantly, why should Zuffa, LLC work diligently to make it happen?
To begin with, Lorenzo Fertitta recently made that “minor” job change, resigning from Station Casinos in Las Vegas to focus on the UFC’s international expansion. The UFC has made known its intentions of increasing MMA’s development to become a much more world-based sport, similar to soccer.
As Dana White has said many times, MMA is a sport virtually every male in every country can identify with and understand, and the Philippines has been cited as a country where the UFC plans to hold future cards. This makes sense, given that UFC pay-per-views are already aired in the Philippines, while Filipino American mixed martial artists, such as the UFC’s Brandon Vera and the WEC’s Mark Munoz, are making headway in the Philippines media.
Still, no combat sport competitor stops traffic in the Philippines like “Pacman,” whose matches have come to symbolize an international rivalry with Mexico. In building his stardom, Pacquiao has turned back tough challengers who hail from Mexico or at least have Latin roots, including Juan Marquez, Marco Antonio Barrera, and most recently, David Diaz.
Thus, while Torres makes sense as a competitor for Pacquiao in terms of size and sporting stature, symbolically, he also carries on a healthy global competition that transcends sport for the atypical fight fan from both Mexico and the Philippines. According to the WEC webpage on Torres, though born in Indiana and now residing in Chicago, Torres speaks Spanish, and thus, could promote the competition to Mexico and other Latin markets.
And while there is that tricky little issue that these two men specialize in different combat sports which must be teased out, let’s continue looking at more of the intrigue this fantasy match would yield for fans of both boxing and MMA across the globe.
First off, both of these fighters bring it. Torres is a slick, aggressive Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu artist, but as we saw in his recent contest with Yoshiro Maeda (already a match-of-the-year candidate), his hands can also wreak somber damage.
Still, could a diverse repertoire of kicks and punches be enough to set up a successful takedown on a Pacquaio who had a year or so to train seriously in the MMA basics? As much respect as I have for Brock Lesnar and his superb wrestling pedigree, his wrestling skills do not match the boxing skills of Pacquiao.
Frank Mir vs. Lesnar was certainly not a freak show. Both Lesnar and Mir gained various dimension of respect from their contest. Hence, if provided the time and training partners, Pacquiao vs. Torres would not be a freak show either.
If the match were set for the end of 2009, that would give Pacquiao over a year to train his takedown defense and some basic jiu-jitsu in order to employ a Chuck Liddell-like strategy and keep the fight standing. Likewise, Torres would have the time to work further on his hands, as well as a strategy to get by Pacquiao’s punches so that he may take the boxing champ to the ground.
As for possible financial hurdles, true, Pacquiao brings in millions of dollars per fight, so he commands a purse well beyond even Chuck Liddell-like money. However, by the end of 2009, Zuffa, LLC will have likely increased their average fighter salaries. Moreover, Pacquiao’s price would be a worthwhile investment if in fact Zuffa, LLC wants to make a colossal global impact that no other MMA organization can match.
Finally, the match would bring the biggest possible spotlight to the bantamweight division. Win, lose, or draw, Torres’s international stock would skyrocket, and if marketed properly, so could Pacquiao’s. Pacquiao would become the central international ambassador, who embraced MMA for the Philippines, and possibly other Asian and Southeast Asian regions, while subsequently returning to his primary craft of boxing.
From there, fighters such as Brandon Vera and Mark Munoz could be highlighted in much the same way as Michael Bisping in the United Kingdom. Along these same lines, Torres could spark a stronger movement of Latino fighters into MMA.
Surely there are unforeseen pitfalls in making this super-fight happen (who knows if Pacquiao even likes or dislikes MMA or is completely indifferent to it?), but dwelling on the obstacles is not how the UFC, or Zuffa, LLC as a whole, made its mark in the sporting world. Pacquiao vs. Torres makes sense. It can happen, and it needs to happen if indeed Zuffa, LLC wants to take MMA to the next level globally with a "bang" no other company could likely match. The question is, will Lorenzo Fertitta and Dana White do what it takes to make it happen?
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David Mayeda, PhD, is lead author of Fighting for Acceptance: Mixed Martial Artists and Violence in American Society, the first political book on mixed martial arts, based on in-depth interviews with 40 mixed martial artists, including Randy Couture, “Rampage” Jackson, Dan Henderson, Guy Mezger, Chris Leben, Antonio McKee, Frank Trigg, and Travis Lutter. The book’s Forward is written by Jason “MayheM” Miller.
(Photos Courtesy of SI.com and Yahoo! Sports)
Comments
It'd be entertaining for
It'd be entertaining for sure, but I just don't know if the $$$ will ever be good enough for a big-time boxer to fight an MMA fighter.
i couldnt disagree
i couldnt disagree more.
while entertaining, i don't think the cost is worth the benefit.
torres fights in the WEC, meaning, he likely doesnt even get nearly as much money as maybe the 3rd best 155 in the UFC (hell the best 155 in the WEC might not see as much as the 3rd best 155 in the UFC).
manny pacquiao makes fedor/chuck-like money to fight 2-3 times a year, at most. after moving up lots of weightclasses, pacquiao now finds himself in one of the most competitive weight areas in boxing. he has dispatched superstars on the way up and could very easily set up super fights with hatton, casamayor, another fight with juan manuel marquez. all of these would be more lucrative than an mma fight against miguel torres. as much as i like mma, i believe more people across the world would be able to identify manny pacquiao, ricky hatton, joel casamayor and juan manuel marquez over miguel torres.
MMA in general will be popular and marketable without the necessity of a crossover super fight, especially one that involves a boxer who devotes most of his spare time to other pursuits like acting, singing, and school (i've heard even politics). its been hard enough for freddie roach to get manny to cut the bullshit out and work on boxing, i seriously doubt he would be able to get manny to focus on mma without motivation, and therein lies a huge problem. the only way to really motivate a prize fighter is by upping the prize and zuffa would have to sell its financial soul to a fighter that wont even likely win. how will it look when pacquiao makes over a million to lose to torres in embarassing fashion while torres makes a fraction of that?
there is no way manny pacquiao won't get completely outclassed when skills outside of boxing are employed. there is no benefit in the filipino market to see the nation's single greatest celebrity disappointed in an avenue he has shown no interest in.
and mma doesn't even need it. again, more cost than benefit. the philippines is close enough to japan to be exposed to japanese mma. the american influence on the philippines is also prevalent enough that an american promotion like the WEC or the UFC could easily work its way in without needing to rely on national heroes. because its not a super regular venue, a zuffa promotion could easily make the kinds of numbers it normally makes without having to shell out loads of extra money to rope in manny pacquiao. i'm pretty sure WWE events sell out in the philippines as well, mostly because the american influence is already strong enough to bolster the brand.
Yes, he ran in a losing
Yes, he ran in a losing effort for a congressional seat and has considered running for what I think is called "Vice Mayor" of Manila. Like I said, lots of hurdles - that's certainly one way to look at things.
better to give brandon vera
better to give brandon vera the bisping treatment if they want to try to market a pinoy
I like the thought process
I like the thought process especially because this fight would bring two strong boxing populations into the MMA mix -- the Philippines and Latin America.
However, beyond that, I think the boxing-MMA interplay would only serve as a one-off point of curiosity and may not be enough to keep boxing fans engaged with MMA.
I would personally rather see Zuffa develop fighters in the Philippines and market them in order to grow the sport there. While Vera is of Philipino descent, I'd like to see home-grown fighters similar to Michael Bisping's role in England.
And, even beyond all that, the main problem is that this is the exact sort of risk Zuffa actually avoids. They wouldn't allow Anderson Silva to fight an aging Roy Jones, Jr., for example.
If there's one dream fight I would wish Zuffa would put on, it'd be Anderson Silva vs. Fedor, which given the physical attributes of both (Silva is a big middleweight and Fedor is a small heavyweight) is a realistic possibility. I think this would be much bigger than Couture-Fedor.
Yup, it would have to be an
Yup, it would have to be an MMA match, where Pacquiao came into the Zuffa, LLC org, not like what Anderson Silva wanted to do - go into the boxing world (a Dana "no-no"). As Bosco pointed out, Pacman turning to MMA for a match has lots of potential impediments, but it could be huge for MMA/Zuffa, LLC in moving beyond the U.S. Anderson-Fedor has international dimensions to it as well, but doesn't carry on an already established international sports rivalry. I think Anderson-Fedor would actually be a bigger match in the U.S. than on a global level, which is cool too. To have two foreign MMA stars that don't speak much English generate a lot of interest in the U.S. would say a lot about MMA's unique reach domestically.
Good point Academics. It'd
Good point Academics. It'd be very awkward trash-talking between Silva and Fedor. A lot of translators would need to get involved...
Fight Ticker wrote: It'd be
It'd be very awkward trash-talking between Silva and Fedor. A lot of translators would need to get involved...
LOL...good point Ticker
I always feel like the translator never really gets the point across of what the fighters are actually saying. Fed's translator was brutal
Head of the MMAfia's Canadian Family - Canada Eh!
Ha ha, trash talking between
Ha ha, trash talking between those two? The translated "trash talking" would be more like the verbal interchange between U. Faber and J. Pulver before their match. Actually, I thought the promotion of that match was awesome, and could not have been done better. It was all about respect and hard work, and that came out in their match too.
Cincy55 wrote: Fight
It'd be very awkward trash-talking between Silva and Fedor. A lot of translators would need to get involved...
LOL...good point Ticker
I always feel like the translator never really gets the point across of what the fighters are actually saying. Fed's translator was brutal
Head of the MMAfia's Canadian Family - Canada Eh!
My worry with translators is always
a) do they understand the sport well enough to adequately describe what the fighter is saying? and
b) do they ever make stuff up or just poorly translate what is being said?
Translator-mediated interviews are just never that good. They usually devolve into generic statements and cliches...
This is ridiculous. First
This is ridiculous. First off, Manny Pacquiao makes about $3 million a fight, bottom line. That's about $2.5 million more per fight than the top MMA fighters today. If you don't believe me, look it up. Financially, Zuffa would never put up that much money for a fighter and then have to deal with the backlash that came along with that from their other established fighters. As a match-up to showcase MMA, be careful what you wish for. Pac-man would destroy Torres on their feet. The only chance Torres would have would be to get the fight to the ground and catch Manny in some kind of submission which is not what fans want to see. We want to see someone get beat up and knocked out. I could see Manny, who came from a street fighting background and is also very adaptive at learning new fighting methods, conceivably learning enough takedown and submission defense to keep the fight on the feet where he would hold an incredible edge. Torres would hold the edge on the ground. I think Chuck Liddell has proven that if you can defend from being taken down and held on the ground, the dominant striker will always win. Truth is, world class boxers have an easier time transistioning to MMA than the other way around. There isn't one fighter in MMA that could hang with the top boxers of world. If they could, they would, seeing as the money is so much better. There's a reason why Dana White won't let Anderson Silva, currently the best striker in MMA, box Roy Jones Jr. RJJ, as old and shot as he is, would school him and make him look like an amatuer. Elite MMA fighters are wising up. Georges St. Pierre spars with Joachim Alcine (a former title holder) who just got demolished by Daniel Santos. Andrei Arlovski is now training with Freddie Roach (Pacquiao's trainer). In the future they may even start to rival the world class boxers with their hands and in the sweet science, but right now there's no comparison. But on the flip side you can't throw a world class boxer in a cage and expect them to handle wrestlers and submissions. But this hypothetical match is just ridiculous. It's not cost effecient or even reasonable to expect a company that's notoriously tight-fisted when is comes to paying their fighters, completely against co-promotion and stubborn to the point of bad business when it comes to budging on exclusivity (Fedor, Couture) to go out and pay a boxer who would demand all of those things and whose base salary is 3X that of their regular fighter payroll for an entire Event. Get Real!
apparently it's all
apparently it's all elementary sherlock holmes...
yeah academics, you are stupid just for bringing this up. i hate you and your crazy ideas!!!
Underboss MMAfia
Head of the West Coast Family
2x Ultimate Challenge Champion
Warlock, I think you're
Warlock, I think you're right on both your major points. I agree, Pacquiao, if given time to train a little MMA would have a great chance of beating Torres, and very decisively since matches start standing up.
I also agree that Zuffa, LLC has a history of getting into tough financial negotiations that have stopped matches from happening and led to fractioned relationships. That's part of my point - too many fighters are underpaid, especially the guys at the lighter weights. It's why I made the point about such a match bringing greater attention to the bantamweight category. The more people accept the current fighter purses and let them go unchallenged, the less they will change.
WarlockHolmes wrote: This
This is ridiculous. First off, Manny Pacquiao makes about $3 million a fight, bottom line. That's about $2.5 million more per fight than the top MMA fighters today. If you don't believe me, look it up. Financially, Zuffa would never put up that much money for a fighter and then have to deal with the backlash that came along with that from their other established fighters. As a match-up to showcase MMA, be careful what you wish for. Pac-man would destroy Torres on their feet. The only chance Torres would have would be to get the fight to the ground and catch Manny in some kind of submission which is not what fans want to see. We want to see someone get beat up and knocked out. I could see Manny, who came from a street fighting background and is also very adaptive at learning new fighting methods, conceivably learning enough takedown and submission defense to keep the fight on the feet where he would hold an incredible edge. Torres would hold the edge on the ground. I think Chuck Liddell has proven that if you can defend from being taken down and held on the ground, the dominant striker will always win. Truth is, world class boxers have an easier time transistioning to MMA than the other way around. There isn't one fighter in MMA that could hang with the top boxers of world. If they could, they would, seeing as the money is so much better. There's a reason why Dana White won't let Anderson Silva, currently the best striker in MMA, box Roy Jones Jr. RJJ, as old and shot as he is, would school him and make him look like an amatuer. Elite MMA fighters are wising up. Georges St. Pierre spars with Joachim Alcine (a former title holder) who just got demolished by Daniel Santos. Andrei Arlovski is now training with Freddie Roach (Pacquiao's trainer). In the future they may even start to rival the world class boxers with their hands and in the sweet science, but right now there's no comparison. But on the flip side you can't throw a world class boxer in a cage and expect them to handle wrestlers and submissions. But this hypothetical match is just ridiculous. It's not cost effecient or even reasonable to expect a company that's notoriously tight-fisted when is comes to paying their fighters, completely against co-promotion and stubborn to the point of bad business when it comes to budging on exclusivity (Fedor, Couture) to go out and pay a boxer who would demand all of those things and whose base salary is 3X that of their regular fighter payroll for an entire Event. Get Real!
I think the main value that could come from this fight would be from the pre-fight buildup, which would be a good chance to bring new fans into the sport (from Latin America and from the Philippines.)
Generally speaking though I'm not a huge fan of the interdisciplinary fights. I never did get too excited about Silva-Jones...
Oh, and welcome to site
Oh, and welcome to site WarlockHolmes...
Pheonix, you know you love
Pheonix, you know you love me.
oh yeah...not sexually
oh yeah...not sexually though. i don't know how many times i have to tell you to stop proposing marriage to me!!!!
Underboss MMAfia
Head of the West Coast Family
2x Ultimate Challenge Champion
At this point, I personally
At this point, I personally fear for the direction of this thread...And to think, the author of this article is the one who led us down this potentially tawdry road...
Okay, enough of the e-mail
Okay, enough of the e-mail jabs at Phoenix ... for now. I read Bosco thinks Torres would school Pacman, even if Pacman had a year's worth of MMA training. Warlock and I disagreed on that. What do others think?
Thanks. I hear what you're
Thanks. I hear what you're saying about bringing in new fans. I just don't think trying to bring in Pacquiao is a practical way to do it or even necessary. Phillipinos and Latin Americans love fighting. All they have to do is have events over there in major cities. If they have them they will come. Throw in some phillipino or Latino (pick your country) fighters, probably throw in a rock band a la Affliction to let them know they're getting more than what they would at some underground unsanctioned event, and you got yourself a show and a lot of buzz. Pacquiao is an International Star that fights mainly in Vegas now. What you're proposing is like paying a top Movie Star like Tom Cruise or Will Smith to be in an experimental foreign film. The only way he'd do it is if he was in love with the idea and took a huge pay-cut.
On the flip side, Silva wants to fight RJJ because he loves the idea of the challenge (not to mention probably the best payday of his life that would come along with it). Jones would win, but I don't think it'd be exciting. Silva's offense and combinations would be nullified without the use of kicks, elbows, and knees. Jones would be too elusive for him, and would just counter and pot shot him all night long, but wouldn't finish him because Jones is old and he sucks now. Jones of the 90s was like Bruce Lee.
Ironically, I think boxing is actually the future of MMA. It's the most advanced martial art of punching on the planet and I find it funny that guys who claim boxing is dead are the same ones that boo and demand a fight be stood whenever they end up hugging on the ground for too long. Sooner or later, fighters will figure out how to defend not just against submissions but more importantly against take-downs and deflect them. You can't submit someone standing up (well, it's a lot harder). Once that happens, it all depends on who the best striker is, which IMO is what we really all want to see, and that's wear boxing with it's footwork and punching, muay thai with it's kicks, elbows, and knees, and greco with it's strength in the clinch come into play. The UFC was originally an experiment to see what the best discipline is and in the beginning Jui Jitsu came out on top. I think Chuck more than anyone solved that riddle by not falling into someone's guard to fight on the ground, getting right back up when you were managed to get taken down, and knocking people out on their feet with better striking.
you keep saying striking is
you keep saying striking is all we want to see. submissions are just as great...
Underboss MMAfia
Head of the West Coast Family
2x Ultimate Challenge Champion
my point is 1 year isnt
my point is 1 year isnt enough time for pacquiao (or any other boxer) to develop the requisite skills to withstand an attack from a well rounded mma fighter that does nothing but train in mma. and if you ask that boxer to devote more than 1 year preparing, i think you get into a situation where you have effectively asked that guy to stop boxing and become an mma fighter.
its not pacquiao specifically, its anyone.
How many times are we going
How many times are we going to go down this road, how many times are we going to beat this poor horse to death? This will never happen, neither guy would want to make the jump into the other's profession and risk losing and Pacquiao makes more money in one fight than Liddell makes in 3 or 4. While it would be great int he Phillipines it wouldn't be that big of a draw here in the US. Although many boxing pundits rank Pac Man as the number 1 fighter now that Mayweather has retired he isn't the draw that he should be. Erik Morales was more well known and he lost 2 out of 3 to Manny.
Let the boxers box and the mixed martial artists mix or however you want to put it. Remember be careful what you wish for because you just might get it. Right Phoenix, you know what I am talking about.
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