By David Mayeda, PhD, FightTicker.com Social Issues Contributor

Frank “The Legend” Shamrock was the first Middleweight champion of the UFC and retired from the organization as the 5-time undefeated champion. In addition to winning other titles, he was also crowned a king of Pancrase and was awarded the title “Fighter of the Decade” for the 1990s by the Wrestling Observer. Shamrock holds notable victories over MMA fighters such as Tito Ortiz, Phil Baroni, Jeremy Horn, Enson Inoue, and Kevin Jackson. Frank Shamrock’s official website can be accessed at: http://www.frankshamrock.com/.

Recently, I had the opportunity to interview Shamrock. Our discussion addressed a number of topics, but revolved predominantly around the ways that MMA fighters can better insure their long-term livelihood, both during and after their athletic careers. What follows are the highlights of our conversation.

ON PHYSICAL AND FINANCIAL RISKS

FightTicker.com: Let’s talk a little bit about your history. Where and when was your first mixed martial arts match?

Frank Shamrock: Wow, good question. It was Dec. 18, 1994. It was in Tokyo, Japan, in Pancrase.

FightTicker.com: Okay, and how much did you get paid for it, do you remember?

Shamrock: $1,800.

FightTicker.com: So being a successful veteran of the sport ... (Frank laughs) ... can you talk about your early years and some of the physical and financial risks you took?

Shamrock: Sure. Physical, I think there’s always a physical risk on the fighter’s part, and in the early days, it was probably fighting or wrestling while being injured. That was pretty hard. You always had to make a tactical decision when you went out, and how injured you were, how much you trained. So that was pretty hard core.

FightTicker.com: What were some injuries that you competed through?

Shamrock: Torn ligaments, broken ribs, torn tendons. That kind of thing.

FightTicker.com: Okay, any financial risks that you took?

Shamrock: Nah. There wasn’t a lot of money. I mean, early in my career of fighting, that early, there was no money.

ON PROMOTER-FIGHTER RELATIONSHIPS AND SELF-PROMOTION

FightTicker.com: Promoters are obviously trying to make money through the fighters’ talents. Broadly speaking, can you talk about how promoters can optimize the ways fighters are treated?

Shamrock: For the most part, I think people are doing at least the best that they know how to do. I don’t think there are a lot of guys that are just criminals. But I think there’s some basics, and that’s taking care of the general per diem, food, place to rest, that kind of stuff. I know that sounds real basic, but a lot of fighters, when you’re a young fighter or a tired fighter, you just want to sleep.

FightTicker.com: How ‘bout insurance, do you think insurance plans are robust enough?

Shamrock: Gosh, I don’t know. I have big event insurance, so I have good insurance in that way. But, I don’t know what the average guy gets for insurance. I know for California, you have to have insurance per event. I think it’s somewhat adequate.

FightTicker.com: When possible, do you think promoters should offer long-term health insurance plans? I mean the fighters are training...

Shamrock: Oh yeah. Well yeah, it’s just not feasible. I mean we’re talking about employees who are only working a couple times a year, so that’s the only problem with it.

FightTicker.com: How do you think fighters should define themselves in order to better insure their long-term livelihood? You know, should they see themselves strictly as fighters or do they really need to look more broadly at how they see themselves as commodities?

Shamrock: Well I think (fighters) need to look at themselves as a brand. I think everybody has their statement. Everybody stands for whatever they stand for. But I think the most important thing for these guys is that they feel everything they do is putting value in their brand ... for me I’ve always been interested in putting forth quality, you know, standing for something I saw as important, and then you know, fighting in a dramatic fashion. I think that’s a big fan seller.

FightTicker.com: Can you think of any other fighters that have done that – created a good brand for themselves.

Shamrock: Sure, I mean Ken Shamrock has done that. Tito Ortiz has done that. Randy Couture has done that.

FightTicker.com: How ‘bout this, can you come up with any positive examples of promoter-fighter relationships over the years?

Shamrock: Sure. I mean I have a really good relationship with Scott Coker from STRIKEFORCE. He’s a promoter.

FightTicker.com: What are some of the things that Scott does that really enables fighters to create their brand and create a longer livelihood?

Shamrock: If you have any innovative marketing ideas, he’ll let you do them, or take a venture in doing them, which is a lot more than anyone else will do. I think that’s a big point. And if you have a following of people and you can prove to him that you’re going to bring that following, or sell tickets, a big sponsorship or something, he’ll cut you in on the pie, just like anyone else who’s bringing a big piece of the show. And I think that’s just good, simple business. So I mean, I think the hard part is the talent or the athletes or the artists, they think a certain way, and a promoter of course is trying to make money and thinks a certain way.

FightTicker.com: But you guys are trying to make money too.

Shamrock: Yeah, we’re all trying to make the same money. We all just have our different reasons, which we all think are better than everybody else’s (laughs). But you know, if I’m getting what I want and the promoters are getting what they want, then it’s a good business.

ON FIGHTERS’ OCCUPATIONAL LONGEVITY AND PLANNING FOR THE FUTURE

FightTicker.com: Now fighters, their sporting lifespan is relatively short. What are some skills that young fighters need to be developing in order to have a career past their fighting age?

Shamrock: Well I think that teaching is a fantastic skill and one that you can use forever. It’s very valuable. Young guys, I always tell them you always want to learn a valuable skill you can teach somebody else. And then for their own bodies, I think the key is longevity. It’s making their body last as long as possible. For that, you need a good system, a good martial arts system that doesn’t damage you. And then you need a good understanding of your health and fitness. You need to live a good healthy lifestyle.

FightTicker.com: Now in terms of having longevity physically, how does that jive with putting on really exciting fights that some would argue are more standup-based...

Shamrock: (Laughs) That’s a fine line that you walk, (laughs again) or don’t walk.

FightTicker.com: Let’s talk about your match with Cung Le. You could have forced that match to the ground at certain points. Can you talk about why you didn’t, your injury, and any retrospective thoughts on that?

Shamrock: Sure. You know, I liked the fight. I liked what I was doing and what was going on, so it was hard for me to stop doing that. I was really enjoying it ... and then you know, I was really hurt.

FightTicker.com: Yeah, how’s your injury? You looked okay on Inside MMA the other week.

Shamrock: Yeah. I mean it looks like it’s healed up. In a couple months I do another x-ray and then I can get ready for when a fight comes up. But I think I’m a couple months away from punching stuff.

FightTicker.com: Would you suggest that kind of strategy for younger fighters in order to increase their market value?

Shamrock: (Laughs) I never suggest that anyone do what I do. It just depends what your goals are. You want to do the most amount of damage with the least amount of effort and the least amount of damage to yourself. That’s the big goal, so as long as you’re planning that goal. You know for me, it’s tough ‘cause I’ve been at it so long, I get bored. And then I do things that, they’re painful. I keep doing them again, and then I think these things aren’t the smartest things in the world. There’s better strategies. But I like training; I enjoy it.

FightTicker.com: Okay, let’s talk about a fighters’ union. Do you think it’s even possible?

Shamrock: Well I think it’s possible. I think the hurdles to getting it done are just too many.

FightTicker.com: Is that because there’s different organizations or the fighters are competing with each other physically and for a name brand?

Shamrock: Well, I think it’s because it’s a brand new sport. You know, it’s like the wild wild west. Most people have no idea what’s going on. And fighters, these young fighters, they’re not loyal. They just want to be on TV. They don’t care about anything. If there’s money, they’ll do it. If they can get on TV, all the better. And then, there you go. There’s a different mentality than those who wanted to do it for no money.

FightTicker.com: Do you feel like the sport’s growing too fast for its own good in some ways?

Shamrock: I don’t know (laughs). I don’t know. I think it’s going to go through its growing pains, but I don’t know. The sport’s crazy, but it always has been.

FightTicker.com: Well, I would guess that a lot of the fighters coming out now don’t have a lot of the same skills that you folks had who were pioneering the sport. I mean, everybody’s jumping in so quickly.

Shamrock: Yeah. Well, that’s a huge burden for us old guys ‘cause there’s the young guys who are good in front of the mic but can’t back it up physically.

FightTicker.com: You brought up Tito Ortiz before. One of the things he said financially speaking, the model to compensate fighters is not just to increase their purses, but also to give them residuals from sold products. Do you think that’s a good model, or does it work for all mixed martial artists?

Shamrock: I think it’s a good model. I don’t know if it’ll work for everybody, but I think it’s a good model.

FightTicker.com: What would you suggest in terms of what you said before, getting your brand and getting compensated for what you bring to the sport?

Shamrock: Well, knowing that a fighter has a limited lifespan in the marketplace at least profitability-wise, and then with the life of his body as well, I think that’s a finite line. As long as you’re compensated okay and there’s some ownership of it, then it’s a worthwhile venture. So if you can always have some of the end product or a branch of it or whatever, then I think it’s a worthwhile venture.

FightTicker.com: Okay, let me throw out three names for you, and you can tell me if these guys should still be fighting. One, Kazushi Sakuraba.

Shamrock: Should he still be fighting? No, he’s done.

FightTicker.com: But he is still fighting. Why shouldn’t he?

Shamrock: I mean, he looks like hell. He doesn’t look good. He looks like he’s in pain.

FightTicker.com: Ken Shamrock.

Shamrock: Done. He’s done. I’ll have my crack at him, but other than that, he’s done.

FightTicker.com: “Minotauro” Nogueira.

Shamrock: Oh, I don’t know. I haven’t seen that much of him, but everybody says he’s pretty banged up.

FightTicker.com: One of the things I’m really interested in is the health of the fighters and that kind of thing, I’m really worried about concussions. You know, they’re a big problem in the NFL and boxing. What’s the best way to educate fighters about the long-term health consequences of head injuries?

Shamrock: Wow, that’s a tough one ‘cause the whole mentality, the lifestyle is carefree and young, and (thinking) you’ll always be fine. And the (effects of head injuries) come so much later, the damage anyways. You don’t see it as much though in MMA, but yeah, I don’t know. That’s a tough one.

ON ELITEXC, KIMBO SLICE, AND TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS

FightTicker.com: Let’s talk a little bit about EliteXC. You did a really good job illustrating educationally the different examples of jiu-jitsu for new viewers. How’d you feel about the show being stockpiled with stand-up guys and girls (women)?

Shamrock: You know I was really indifferent to it. I knew what they were looking for, people getting knocked out, stand ‘em up. But I didn’t really care either way.

FightTicker.com: Do you think Kimbo’s being utilized appropriately for MMA’s long-term welfare?

Shamrock: I don’t know. Who knows. I don’t think anyone knows what they’re doing. And it’s been that way for a long time. Who knows.

FightTicker.com: How do you think Gary Shaw should be using him?

Shamrock: Well, you know, I think he’s doing it the best way he can, the way he should be. You know, he’s (Kimbo) that guy, the big, scary guy. How else do you use him (laughs)?

FightTicker.com: Well, where do you think Gary Shaw’s interests ultimately lay?

Shamrock: Building value in his company.

FightTicker.com: Okay, you were on a recent episode of Inside MMA with Jared Shaw (EliteXC Vice President) and Kimbo ... I was really surprised, there was a part when Jared said Kimbo did not care about money and he only cared about fighting for the sport and the pride of the streets. I was wondering what your thoughts were on the Vice President of an MMA organization saying that his marquee fighter didn’t care about money.

Shamrock: Well of course he cares about money. He’s in it for the bread ... I don’t know. They’re just trying to put over the sport.

FightTicker.com: How do you feel like the influx of people like Donald Trump and Mark Cuban are gonna affect the sport?

Shamrock: It affects it in certain ways, the more money that gets into it. But in the long run, it’s just the business. Investors come and go. I’ve worked with a lot of people, for many, many years. But it’s all good. You know, bring the money, it’s cool.

FightTicker.com: Any comments regarding Dana White?

Shamrock: No.

FightTicker.com: How do you feel Bruce Lee would feel about MMA’s current trajectory?

Shamrock: I think he’d be proud of Kimbo Slice.

FightTicker.com: How come?

Shamrock: Well I think Kimbo is that accidental martial arts guy. He fell into the sport. Hey, he was doing it anyway; he was beating people up. But here’s a real, structured, honest to goodness way (to beat people up). It’s crazy, but in a lot of ways, there’s a lot of truth to it.

FightTicker.com: Yeah, I noticed when you were commentating ... you made it a point to say there are a lot of notions of traditional martial arts, like respect for yourself and others, that are built into MMA. Do you think MMA organizations should initiate those kinds of messages more?

Shamrock: I think so. I mean, they are doing mixed martial arts. I think the history is important.

FightTicker.com: Do you think organizations should initiate messages that promote non-violence outside of the sport?

Shamrock: Well I think it’s a good idea. I think it’s just as responsible, if you’re selling cigarettes, you should not sell cigarettes to minors. But we sell violence I suppose.

FightTicker.com: What would be some good ways for organizations to do that?

Shamrock: I don’t know. I don’t know, I’ve never thought about it that far. I think it’s a good idea to tell people.

David Mayeda, PhD, is lead author of the book Fighting for Acceptance: Mixed Martial Artists and Violence in American Society, the first politically-based book on MMA incorporating in-depth interviews with 40 mixed martial artists, including Randy Couture, Quinton Jackson, Dan Henderson, Jason Miller, Antonio McKee, Guy Mezger, Chris Leben, Frank Trigg, Travis Lutter, and Chris and Mike Onzuka.

(Photo of Frank Shamrock courtesy of Strikeforceusa.net.)